Civil disobedience is one of the oldest, if not the oldest, tradition in America. Thomas Paine, Susan B. Anthony, or Rosa Parks give history classes good examples. What makes these Americans great is exactly what it means to be American: People who are against the status quo, against mainstream ideology, and against doing what they are told.

Unlike a simple revolution, persuading people in 2017 to acknowledge how the world works, requires, well, work. You cannot fix a problem if you don’t realize there is one. In many cases, necessity makes for strange bedfellows.

Going against the grain has always been a part of punk culture. In an odd way, punk and hardcore are, to a certain extent, as American as apple pie, fireworks, and community pride. Standing out has always been a part punk and hardcore. And walking into Wisconsin Hardcore Fest (WHCF) isn’t the same as walking into other regional musical festivals like Country Jam or Rock Fest. It’s small. It’s crowded. It’s loud. It’s a lot of things people don’t enjoy. Yet, for all its possible misgivings, it’s inviting.

With over 20 years of managing an all ages venue, the Warehouse, Steve Harm paints a picture about this attraction:

Steve: And a lot of kids who come here, just, they hear that it’s a place where people are a bit more open minded. And they’ll show up by themselves and two months later, three months later, they got ten friends that they’re doing things with.

Because all those kids are social misfits. And none of the kids that come here are, I wouldn’t say they are the bad element, but I would say they are kids that could easily fall into depression. Kids that are potentially suicidal, just because they’re not socially accepted. And I think when they come here, they find music that isn’t the super-glossy pop music that makes you feel that you have to be the beautiful kid. I think that they’re just . . . they can walk through the door and all of a sudden, not just be themselves, they can realize who they are.

Being open minded, as Steve suggests, is a linchpin for things like WHCF and the Warehouse. But what type of open mindedness is Steve talking about? It’s a complicated question. If fact, it’s a question without a simple answer that comes with a caveat of terms, exceptions, and contradictions. And as we look into this world, it’s really about being yourself, being able to stand up for something larger than yourself, and embracing and rejecting the best and worst parts of society.

A Land of Misfit Toys

Mark Porath is a guitarist for Defeatism. Like other musicians in punk and hardcore, Mark never felt like he belonged. And during high school, he really struggled to fit in small-town Wisconsin. At times, music became a personal escape.

Mark: I have always been, as I would call it, a little weird

looking. I look, if you saw a picture of me from when I was a baby, you would be like ‘Yep, that’s exactly who that is. That’s Mark.’ Cause I never like . . . I’ve always looked weird. Always been an odd looking dude. Always had long hair. Always been that kind of person.

And my dad and me, would always go on drives all around Wausau [and] Merrill. All we would do was listen to music. I spent a lot of time alone as a kid. And I had a lot of time to look at music and listen. And that’s all I did for years. When I was a kid, my dad would take me to Fargo where he lived. All I would do when he was at work was sit on the computer, and just Rhapsody, or now the concurrent one would be Spotify. I would listen to the Bouncing Souls and NOFX. All I did was breathe and eat frickin punk music.

Mark’s sentiment isn’t uncommon. Mark Truman, bassist for RIG TIME!, points out that many people like himself flock to punk and hardcore for a personal reason.

Mark: What brought me into what [RIG TIME!] are doing, in general, was just like a need to get things out. You know what I mean. Not to get out any sort of lovey-dovey-happy sort of thing. It’s more like, I need to get out things that really, really bother me. That get me down. And I need to just get it out, so I can feel better about myself. And get through my day. And get through my life. And leave all of the things that I need to leave within the space of the scene through what I’m saying, what I’m doing, what I’m playing, there. And everything else that I need to do in my life that is a part of that, doesn’t have all that baggage and emotional stress that I could have.

And what Mark gets from punk and hardcore isn’t for everyone. I mean, this isn’t a traditional youth outlet like baseball or the Boy Scouts—or even a championed avenue within popular music. Taylor, a member of Infamy, speaks candidly about his band.

Taylor: I don’t think that there’s any reason that anybody shouldn’t come out to [Infamy’s] shows. I think that it certainly can be an open invite to anybody. But, I don’t necessarily think it’s for everyone single person out there. I think that’s one of the things that makes it awesome . . . It resonates with a lot of people, but it doesn’t resonate with so many more people. And like, that’s one of the things that keeps it fun for me. It’s not everybody’s thing. But, for those that really click with it, it’s almost everything to them. And I think that’s really special.

For some people, punk and hardcore is just a phase, an awkward period when upsetting your parents boils down to loud music and thick eyeliner. Yet, for many others, it’s something more than music. It’s a lifestyle that questions the invisible walls of values and norms in society. While in conversation with Bryan Fleming, who organized WHCF, I remember a turning point in my own life.

Seth: And I remember coming [to the Warehouse]. And there was this guy wearing this t-shirt – that I have so very burned into my head – and on the back of it, it said ‘Endpoint’ and it had like this silhouette of a beaten woman. And on the front, it had a statistic ‘Every 26 seconds, a woman is a victim of domestic violence’. And that was the first time when, especially music wasn’t talking about those, you know, one of those bumble-gum pop scenarios, like my heart’s been broken and things of that nature.

And it opened my eyes to this whole new world. About, you can take that personal and also address social issues. And a lot of the times when you have punk and hardcore, there are social issues. There’s like a vegan movement. There’s a posi-core movement. There’s a pro-Queer movement. With the hardcore community, is that something that’s very common or is that something that’s, more or less, a freak of nature to random locations in America?

Bryan: I think that a lot of people I know in the hardcore scene are trying to stand up for something. I mean, there are some people who are here because maybe they feel right. But in a sense, maybe that’s a movement too. Maybe it’s a movement to feel comfortable with yourself – in any way, shape, or form. Or to be able to feel comfortable with anyone. I think that a lot of people usually have a purpose and a reason behind why they are involved with the hardcore scene. I myself do and it’s kind of hard to pinpoint down to one reason. But, I think it’s maybe having a conviction or a moral belief in something that you feel, that you are easy, easier to covey to people through the type of music you are playing – or the attitudes of the people around you involved in that music scene.

I know people that will embrace anyone that comes to a show, as long as they are there for the right reasons. If you are bringing in hate or any type of violence for a certain group of people, you’ll be kick out. I mean, metaphorically or physically. You know, racism isn’t tolerated, sexism. You know, obviously the big thing people always talk about is people with Nazi attitudes and stuff like that. Because I think that those people have an idea of what everybody needs to be. But in hardcore, it’s about that you need to be yourself. And that’s what is important.

Bryan touches on a larger question in society: In a land of the free, who’s free to feel accepted for their beliefs—especially if these beliefs are against the status quo, social expectations, and cultural values?

And for an outwardly nihilistic and aggressive community, punk and hardcore shouldn’t be a breeding ground for seemingly progressive stances on racism, feminism, homophobia, and domestic abuse.

It’s difficult at times to feel accepted; it’s natural. It’s so natural, that many people at the WHCF have attached to being unaccepted. For some of them, music is a bridge between personal torment and promoting social change. As we’ll find out, this platform is rather complex.

A City of Disobedience

Author Simon Frith redefines performance. Popular acts like Toby Keith or Bruce Springsteen are well known for their massive tours. During a single performance, it’s customary to address the audience between songs with stories or a message about a certain topic. This is, as Frith suggests, just a part of their performance, a way to connect to an audience. Yet, what he further implies, is how an audience’s act of listening becomes a performance, a way to show you understood the message.

On one hand, WHCF isn’t different. Musicians play. Audiences react. And everything seems to move on. On the other hand, punk and hardcore has never been subtle. In fact, the brief 30 second speech between a song isn’t an aside, it’s a mantra for the community.

Ray has been playing in hardcore bands for nearly 20 years. Be it his native Fox Valley area or across the United States, one thing has always stood out for him.

Ray: And I think since like day one, it’s always been about accepting people who are different. It’s always been about every race, every sex, every gender, creed, color, whatever you are, has been included. And I think that the one thing that punk and hardcore has been about is like, no homophobia, no sexism. None of that stuff. Everyone is accepted.

Is [hardcore] for everyone? No. Like, if you come to a show and you get hit in the face, and you wonder why you get hit in the face, chances are it’s not your scene. You know what I mean. Maybe you want to go to something a little lighter. But, if you like dig it, and you’re feeling it, that’s cool. And that doesn’t matter. Personally, it never mattered to me. And it shouldn’t matter to any other scene.

But the one thing, even with the community online, if they find out about somebody being sexist or racist, or whatever it is, you kinda get blacklisted in a way. You kinda get thrown out in public, like ‘Yo, don’t say that type of shit.’ And I mean obviously, if someone wants to change their ways and realize ‘Hey, that’s not the correct thinking. Don’t do that. That’s not accepted.’ Cause you don’t want to isolate anybody. You don’t want to be like ‘You’re the one black kid at the show.’ Like who cares.

It feels as if punk and hardcore are against everything: no racism, no sexism, no homophobia, no violence, and no animal cruelty. So much in fact, you can ask, why isn’t this the safest place in the world?

Kevin and Nick, two La Crosse area natives, highlight the irony surrounding punk and hardcore:

Kevin: It’s hard to say that the hardcore scene is a safe space. You can’t really say it’s a safe space because it’s a hardcore show. People are getting punched, and kicked, and hugged, and body slammed all at the same time. But at the end of the show, everybody is friends with everybody. I’ve been to shows where I’ve gotten punched in the face. I’ve broken my hand over a girl’s face. And I felt really bad because I hit a girl. But, then again, she’s like ‘No, this is a hardcore show. This is what happens.’ And then gave me a hug and then I saw her windmill kick a guy in the face.

 Nick: I think that it would be fairly uncontroversial to say that by safe space we mean all types of thought, and all approaches are allowed and actually encouraged. When you talk about safety, a hardcore show is not the safest place exactly when it comes to physical. Certainly, I would rank a hardcore show as one of the top places to have the kind of safety to think otherwise, to think for yourself. Not necessarily being forced to allow the greater social influences to tell you what you are suppose to think.

But, being able to think for yourself without being ridiculed is another question. And with Kevin and Nick, their conversation touches on how people are “expected” to act, respond, and even think as Americans.

Kevin: I don’t really want to get into it. But, do I support Trump as a person? No. But, I am a Republican because that’s my military standpoint. Yeah, Republican, we definitely need that in a time of war. But, are they making great choices? No. Do I support everything they’re saying? No. So, it’s kind of hard because some of my viewpoints clash with people in the community. Yeah, and we’ve definitely gotten into, I wouldn’t say arguments, but debates about things. And I try to tell them, ‘Well I see it from this standpoint because I’ve [severed in the Military] and saw it that way.’

Yeah so it does kinda clash. It’s kinda funny to see how dramatic people get about it. And they say ‘Oh, my God. You were in the Military? I can’t believe this. Why would you do this or why would you do that? Why would you want to go over there and do what you did?’ It’s for totally different reasons. It had nothing to do with my beliefs or personal agenda against homophobia or sexism. Obviously my shirt says that ‘I will not tolerate’ any of that. But, you do see it a lot in the Military. It was hard but, like I said earlier, I went to bed with my beliefs and I woke up with my beliefs. And I wouldn’t let anybody change it.

Nick: [With] what Kevin was saying, because it’s absolutely true: A lot of people are completely shut out to alternative thinking or alternative opinion. They’re simply not interested in a change of perspective or what a lot of people would call a more tolerant perspective, or a more egalitarian perspective. A lot of people are in an absolute state of refusal. And it’s hard to pinpoint why and I feel that would be a different discussion anyway. But, for the people who are open to new beliefs and being influenced by their peers and having fruitful discussions, I think there are enough people in the latter category that this type of fruitful discussion can be had, despite the presence of many folks who will not hear such a new perspective. There are things that can be done despite the presence of people who won’t hear them.

Kevin: Yeah, and I feel in the hardcore scene, it’s so different. There’s so many different standpoints. It’s sorta accepted. Everybody’s opinion is heard. Nobody is really ignored at all. If you want to be a total racist, homophobic, sexist jerk, yeah people aren’t going to like it. But, we’re not going to tell you not be to that way.

Kevin and Nick’s conversation is a portal, so to speak, into contemporary society. Real change can only occur when there’s an opposing force that can be practically criticized. In 2017 across the Midwest, things once seen as practical are now illogical, or even attacks against basic American rights.

Take for example Greg (Guess Prefontaine), a black hip-hop artist from La Crosse who opened WHCF. Being raised in an African American community during a growing wave of patriotism, nationalism, and Confederate pride hasn’t been easy. But, what Greg sees is an issue of exposure.

Greg: And I really think it comes down to exposure. A lot of people haven’t been exposed to a diverse population. Just because they are here in La Crosse, they haven’t necessarily ventured out to different places; where there may be more diversity; where there might not be people of the same color they are. That might not practice the same religion that they do. I think that lack of exposure can really have an affect on how we see each other and how we are able to interact with each other on a daily basis.

So, with that being said, I feel like for me, I can use my music and being able to take, like I said, an art form that’s usually seen as really hard and vulgar and sometimes just nasty and graphic and make it something that’s more artful. Maybe insightful. And tries to invoke a different emotion in people. I feel that I use music as a way to battle that. As a way to expose people and say ‘Hey, I’m doing something different. I’m trying to be unique with this.’ And not fit into a stereotype or to be pigeon holed into a specific way. Because I rap and make hip-hop music with hard beats and rhymes or whatever. You know, it’s not as simple as that. It’s not just that at the surface. It’s looking deeper and seeing what else is there.

Building Better Communities

So, who would have an issue with building a better community? You would be surprised. The conversations among everyone involved, to a certain degree, are harmless to most. But, when they ask people to examine how the world operates and how it maintains social conditions, it somehow crosses a line.

Take for example Q (Obnoxious Boot) a self-proclaimed Christian who studied youth ministry and toured with popular Christian hardcore acts like Zao, Strongarm, and Training for Utopia. He explains how the reality within not only punk and hardcore is questionable, but also the outside world.

Q: I have a song called ‘Your Building is a Fallacy’. It’s literally about the fact that the Catholic church forces you to have that faith in Christ. They go, ‘Hey, if you don’t do this, you’re going to Hell.’ Instead of allowing you to find, your own, your own faith on its own. And that’s the one good thing about hardcore; it’s like everyone tells you ‘The government is good. Cops are good. Don’t do drugs.’ It’s like, they are standing up for things they believe in, but they are just trying to force everyone else. But in hardcore, I mean, obviously you can’t come in and be racist. I mean, it’s just another thing I believe in. Like, that song is really against Catholics and other Christians put all their time and faith into a building. Like, me and you, in this room talking about Jesus is ten times more of a church than a five million dollar building.

For some, pushing boundaries is limited to private conversations. And when people like Q and I start talking about these topics publicly, perspectives could change. But, this isn’t always good, especially people who feel marginalized.

Again, Mark from Defeatism.

Mark: I mean, that’s punk; it’s suppose to be abrasive. You’re suppose to look at something and be like ‘Oh, holy shit. That’s a real thing that happens’ And, the fact like now it’s not that crazy, but like seven years ago there was a band called Hostage Calm putting out t-shirts, all they said was their name and ‘I support same sex marriage.’ That was it. Imagine the razzle-rouse if I had that and walked into frickin high school with that. Oh my gosh. Kids would have lost their shit. I got called mean names enough because I wore tight pants. I could have only imagine if I literally was [saying] ‘Hey, by the way, these are what I believe.’ Because, I was always a quiet kid. I didn’t need another reason for them to pick on me. Jesus.

Mark highlights some of the backlash people can experience outside the punk and hardcore community for supporting their views. In many cases, going against the grain isn’t pretty. Even with this in mind, it doesn’t stop him.

Mark: To a point it comes with the territory. But, on another point I rather see a band with conviction than somebody who’s just floundering in the middle and talking nonsense about nothing. I rather see someone talking about personal issues than whatever sounds cool coming out of your mouth, you know. I always find that to be the strangest kind of lyrical content. I understand a cool line here and there, but when it’s all that’s popping out of your mouth, you’re like ‘Dude, you’re not fighting dragons buddy. Calm down.’

There isn’t a clear path, or a how-to-manual for transitioning a viewpoint into a social change. Even to begin can be feel overwhelming. Robby Ray, from All Out Mutiny, explains how a small conversation in Brazil taught him something about America.

Robby: I think we’re exposed to, you know, bad circumstance everywhere. Sometimes that’s in, at shows or the hardcore music. What it boils down to is we could all do a better job of actually, you know, not to be cliche, but sticking to your guns. And when you have a strong opinion that you can follow through with it and actually stand united with people who share your beliefs. Who don’t want to see racism or police brutality or anything like that. We could all do a better job of being a voice for that is what I am thinking. We could portray not just as a single band or a single show, but a community that backs themselves up and each other up when they are faced with that situation. It’s always been an All Out Mutiny mission statement that we stand against authority, especially very wrongful authority and inequitable circumstance everywhere.

We just toured Brazil. We saw a lot of crazy things. But, we also made great relationships. And I just had a conversation this morning with a friend, Samuel Garcia, who was at our Zituba show I believe. And, we were talking about religion and I am very, openly not religious. And the great thing about it was he said ‘But, there’s no reason to mock somebody for their beliefs. You know, it’s better to understand why, first, somebody believes this way.’ In Brazil, they are very religious. But also, that’s what they do. As long as their culture and they show respect towards each other, it’s fine. And sometimes we have to learn to accept it. But also, fight against the bullshit that happens right here in the U.S.

Many punk and hardcore communities across the United States actively support people in need. As recent as September 2017, members of Pg. 99, a seminal punk collective, performed one of their first shows in ten years, while donating over $10,000 dollars to LGBT community centers and reproductive rights organizations.

While supporting organizations like these isn’t popular, it hits home for some people. Even in La Crosse, Bryan from RIG TIME! explains why it’s important to him.

Bryan: And I think, a lot of people who might be involved in this scene . . . they might have even grown up like I did in kind of a poor lifestyle or rough family. And so they have something inside that makes them feel a sense of compassion for other people. And that’s where I think I get it from, just my own upbringing. And, you know, even growing up and being bullied and stuff . . . I know what it feels like to feel less than. And so to me, I want to help people feel good or I want to able to help people with the things they need – whether it be the feelings you get from music or being able to help with a donation drive to get them goods and supplies. I think that sometimes people may not pay attention to underground bands or heavy bands and all the good work that they do. But, there’s a lot of good people out there who are just trying to make the world a better place. And maybe it’s not focused on because it’s not profit driven and it doesn’t involve money. Sometimes, money can be the only thing people care about in life.

Bryan’s involvement within the community isn’t uncommon. In fact, members of the Warehouse have facilitated community outreach programs such as food drives and sex education.

Even at the WHCF, Warehouse team member Ben Koch organized a donation drive for New Horizons Shelter and Outreach Centers, a support center for victims of domestic violence and sexual assault.

As Steve points out, these actions aren’t uncommon:

Steve: I think it probably happens more than I am aware of, because I can’t keep track of everybody that comes here and listens to some of the stuff we do . . . some of the causes we help work for. But, Ben has been very good at not just championing those causes personally, but also as a board member of the Warehouse pushing us to help one organization or another. He had pointed out to me, what I had noticed personally that New Horizons Women’s Outreach Center was in need of the paper products. We both discussed whether or not we should have a fundraiser and raise those products here during the Hardcore Fest. And that was about a ten second decision of ‘Of course we should.’ If we could get people to bring us stuff that we could bring to New Horizons and people are coming here anyway . . . we can facilitate it for people who don’t know where New Horizons is. Why wouldn’t we do it?

People can’t fix problems that are immune to effective criticism, especially if these people are speaking against popular values. For many of the people at WHCF, it’s not a matter of being popular; it’s about doing something that matters. About questioning seemingly mundane practices. About building a better community.

Is supporting an outside point of view civil disobedience? Probably not. Does it upset a lot of people? Absolutely. But, challenging norms and traditions shouldn’t be treated as defiance. Even as Q reminds us, in the end, you don’t have to be Superman. You just have to be a hero in your own way.

Q: Never think what you are doing is too small. Because it’s not. Because a lot of people then try to set out and do more than they actually possibly can. So, helping the women’s shelter is great because that’s what Steve wants to do. That’s what Steve can do. As long as you are out there trying to put a smile onto somebody else’s face . . . as a kid, I’m a comic book nerd. I always wanted to be Superman. I wanted to go out and save the world. You know, Korea like drops bombs. And fly and take those bombs away. And then as an adult, you have to realize that’s not something that’s actually possible for you. And the best thing that you can do whether it is volunteering at a Salvation Army or a soup kitchen. Or even at shows, just talk positively to people. Like literally tell someone, not in a creepy way . . . let someone [know] like ‘You had a good set. Yo, you look good. Yo, I really do like that shirt.’ If you put a smile on somebody’s face, everyday, you literally are changing the fucking world.

NOTE: Music for the podcast comes from Source of Hate, Forced Impact, Delinquents, Guess Prefontaine, and Speaker Eater. Main image photo from Kelsey Kaplan Media. Graphic Design from Seth Langreck.